Only In FL! 50% say teach only Creationism/Intelligent Design

This diary may violate a cardinal rule - never type when you are so angry you can't see straight. This is Florida after all, what do I expect?

Florida parents don't have much faith in evolution.

Only 22 percent want public schools to teach an evolution-only curriculum, while 50 percent want only faith-based theories such as creationism or intelligent design, according to a new St. Petersburg Times survey.

An article in the St Pete Times here has the headline "Public: Faith trumps science".

The details of the poll of 702 registered voters is shown below. One can only imagine where they found these voters?

In survey after survey, Florida schools rank near the bottom in terms of funding and drop out rates and you have to wonder what kind of leaders for tomorrow we are preparing down here.

As in many states, there is a battle going on down here over the teaching of evolution in the state approved science texts. Several county school boards in northern Florida (what we really call Southern Georgia) will not allow the mention of evolution, except as a theory that is taugh along side creationism and intelligent design.

What concerns me is the ability the religious conservative right seems to have to take issue after issue (reproductive freedom, marriage equality, equal rights, affirmative action, gun control, teaching of evolution, immigration to name just a few) and somehow manage to re-package the dialog so that we're suddenly back to a position that was acceptable at the end of the 19th century.

Perhaps it's only more freightening to me because I grew up in New England and have lived in Seattle, San Francisco, Washington DC and suddenly find myself in this land of wingnuts that is Florida.

I think the time is coming for the 4 southern counties of Florida (Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade and Monroe) to give serious consideration to forming a new state of SOUTH FLORIDA. Or perhaps turning over some of the northern counties to the states of Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia.

It's either that or stronger blood pressure medicine.

•  And they really love George W. Bush

  and think his policies are great. During the Florida primary 66% of those polled think George W. Bush is either excellent or good.  I thought at the time, "Who are these people"?

  by linnie on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:32:21 AM PDT

  •  Source

    Do you have a source for this?

    by Step Beyond on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:00:53 AM PDT

  •  The only poll I've found on this was on MSNBC

    And they only asked Republicans the question and it was 68/32 in support of the Bush administration.

    by kansasr on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:36:49 AM PDT

    •  I got my information on MSNBC exit polls

      but I said 66% instead of 68%. My bad. And while I didn't specify Republicans, I was responding to the diary which referenced the opinions of the people who want to teach creationism which I took to be only the wingnuts (Republicans).

      by linnie on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 11:40:39 AM PDT

•  Oh, but remember that Florida matters

  Because it voted for Hillary after a non-campaign

  So, I guess, we all better get out some Jesus fish and put them on our cars

  /snark

  by El Yoss on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:33:23 AM PDT

  •  with respect, once we let them secede

    they can elect Hillary or whoever they want to elect.

    cya.....

    by 7November on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:35:35 AM PDT

•  For me, we could let the Confederacy go.

  I say let the whole region secede.  They can elect their own idiot/s and pay their own bills.  Most of those states collect more money from the federal govt. than they pay in and they bitch about their taxes.

  They can visit the rest of the U.S. but we build a fence and ban immigration from the confederacy.

  by 7November on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:34:58 AM PDT

  •  You know they would

    start a war overnight.

    by ChakraTease on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:41:19 AM PDT

  •  They can't pay their own bills.

    Oh, they moan about welfare queens, but The South receives more in government programs than it pays in taxes. The NE, Great Lakes and Pacific ststes are supplementing the Deep South.

    Let the South secede, you'll have West Virginians trying to get across the border illegally because they could make more money washing dishes in Pittsburgh than they could at home!

    by ShawnGBR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:56:15 AM PDT

  •  They don't get to secede. THIS time,

    we kick the dumbasses OUT!

    (with apologies to Kossacks marooned in the region...)

    by John Poet on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:03:37 AM PDT

•  I don't buy it...

  I live in FL, and I'm thinking that either they pollled outside churches on Sunday, or they limited their phone calls to the wasteland between Jacksonville and Georgia.

  Or maybe they only polled the local residents who retired here before Darwin travelled to Galapagos. We have a few of them on our city council...

  by robroser on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:36:15 AM PDT

  •  Agree

    We have our share of wingnuts, but I doubt the creationism/ID level would go above 40%. Still bad, but not quite as bad as the polls indicate. Even Kansas kicked out the creationists a few years back.

    by corwin on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:39:40 AM PDT

    •  Rigged

      all they needed to do is poll at the loca applebee's around the time of the early bird dinner special.

      Old people on the last chapter of life will fill in any bubble they think will guarantee them an opportunity not to die.  Cowards.

      by ChakraTease on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:43:26 AM PDT

      •  I hate to tell you,

        but these poll numbers are actually encouraging to me.  Of course, it matters exactly how questions are worded, but these are some of the best numbers I have ever seen for evolution in an American poll.

        by UU VIEW on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:01:29 AM PDT

    •  Hey Corwin,

      have you been collecting signatures for the new redistricting initiative?

      I've sent in 52 already, including one signed by CFO Alex Sink!

      by Tally on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:43:34 AM PDT

      •  I should have said

        two signed by CFO Sink since there is one to stop gerrymandering of Congressional districts and one for legislative districts.

        They wanted to make sure they didn't fall into the "more than one subject" trap when the Supreme Court review occurs.

        by Tally on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:46:11 AM PDT

      •  how do I sign the petition (I'm from tampa)?

        It didn't seem obvious online, just a place to volunteer, which I do not have time to do.

        by eparrot on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:00:11 AM PDT

        •  You can't sign it online.

          You have to download a copy of each and then send them in.

          by Tally on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:10:58 PM PDT

      •  Thanks

        I didn't know they had started collecting sigs again. Time to turn on the printer.

        by Step Beyond on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:01:11 AM PDT

        •  These petitions are different

          from last time. They will be on the 2010 ballot and will provide guidelines for the legislature to follow.

          by Tally on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 12:17:16 PM PDT

      •  Got the gang at work

        And a few others. Not too many, but every signature helps.

        by corwin on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:14:40 AM PDT

    •  Look, the national level of creationism

      is over 40%, and I'm sure it's higher than the national average in Florida.

      Don't think that just because most of the people you know are reasonable that there are not huge reservoirs of fundamentalism and creationism not far away.

      by UU VIEW on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:52:22 AM PDT

  •  I don't buy it either.

    I live here, too, transplanted to be sure.  I haven't met anyone so far who doesn't think this argument is ridiculous.  The poll seems to be unbalanced.  Or am I just hoping?

    by leeleeFL on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:40:34 AM PDT

    •  Sorry, you're just hoping.

      See the national polls in my post downthread.

      Just because we don't see it day by day doesn't mean it isn't there.  You just don't travel in those circles, I would bet.  This is a huge problem that many people just don't get.  AT LEAST 40% of the American population believes in young-earth creationism, and no more than 13% believe in evolution by natural selection (with no divine intervention).  I'm sure the percentages are worse in Florida.

      We desperately need better science education in this nation (and frankly, good comparative religion education wouldn't hurt, either).

      by UU VIEW on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:57:11 AM PDT

    •  Soft Creationism

      I think that a lot of the polling on this issue includes soft creationism.  These are people that couldn't tell you the first thing about evolution and honestly don't really care about the topic either way.  In their heads, they have two choices, "Nature magically created itself" or some higher being magically created nature.  Without understanding any of the specifics of evolution, they could make the wrong decision.  This polling does show the ignorance of the public though.  

      by cassdog on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:17:51 AM PDT

•  I voted for South Florida state

  though if we do that then you're talking about maybe the most conservative state with what's left. What would that put the Florida Senate and Houses, like 30-10 and 100-20?

  by Progressive America on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:37:26 AM PDT

•  St. Pete times

  is not exactly a journalism giant, so take it was a grain of salt.  But if those numbers are true, it makes me embarassed to be a Floridian.  

  by smash artist on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:39:11 AM PDT

  •  are you kidding?

    The St. Pete Times is one of the most respected papers in the country, one of the few not beholden to a media conglomeration.  It's probably the #2 paper in the state behind the Miami Herald, if not in circulation, certainly in respect.

    I'm a Floridian also (Tampa) and those numbers unfortunately sound true to me.  the one silver lining is that many of the so-called bible-thumpers do not practice what the preach and thus they undermine their ability to create a religious state like Saudi Arabia, as they would like.

    by eparrot on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:57:04 AM PDT

    •  St pete times

      I second that.  The St. Pete Times is a well-respected paper with great, honest exposes.  They are one of the only papers that has been critical to the creationists rather than just reporting the facts.

      by cassdog on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:15:36 AM PDT

•  Hey,

  my own Leon County is in north Florida and we're bright blue. Hell, we even voted down amendment 1!

  by Tally on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:41:13 AM PDT

•  What your charts say

  Is that 29% of Floridians favor teaching that an intelligent being, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, created intelligent life with a touch of his noodly appendage.

  That clearly is the most favorite pick, not this "God" person or the ludicrous notion that it all happened by chance.

  Yep.

  It's FSM time, folks.

  The New Enlightenment is at hand.

  FSM bless you all.

  by cskendrick on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:45:59 AM PDT

•  It's not just Florida, sadly.

  National Gallup polls have repeatedly found that only 13% or less of Americans believe in evolution by natural selection (without divine intervention).  Anywhere from 40% to 55% (depending on the poll) believe in young earth creationism--that the universe is less than 10,000 years old.  No other industrialized nation in the world has such a low belief in evolution.  The state of science education in the United States is sorry, indeed.

  How else could a young-earth creationist like Mike Huckabee be doing so well with almost no money?

  See Gallup poll link here.

  by UU VIEW on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:50:04 AM PDT

  •  by the way, note how different internet surfers

    are from the general public in the polls I linked to above.

    by UU VIEW on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:05:48 AM PDT

  •  Sad indeed

    And older people tend to be more for creationism. Which makes the Florida results make even more sense.

    by Step Beyond on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:17:26 AM PDT

•  Intelligent design? Just a name change.

  I go into much more detail in a diary I wrote yesterday, but seeing as it's about climate change, I'll just cite the ID bit...

  So when [a well known creationist supporter] says he was studying "intelligent design" [in the 1980s], he was reading material that was chock full of terms like "creationist" and "creationism".

  The main source in the [f]right winger's library was first called Creation Biology (1983); then Biology and Creation (1986); then, Biology and Origin (1987); and then later in 1987, the authors settled on the final title, Of Pandas and People.

  People that say they want ID taight fall into one or more of three camps:

  they don't know about the history concerning the book Of Pandas And People, so they honestly don't know 'ID' and 'Creationism' are like saying 'Horseless Carriage' and 'Automobile' (same thing, different words)

  they have a hidden agenda to turn the USA towards a religion-based government, like Iran

  they would believe that maybe fairies ARE real because of those Victorian Era photos ...in other words, there are people that believe anything told to them. Gullible is the word I'm looking for here.

  The people PUSHING the idea, of course, belong in the second group. They have a vested interest in making it happen, and it's not a philosophical one. It's because they profit from such a thing, and I do mean financially. There's a reason why Evangelical preachers don't waste a broadcast without asking for cash.

  by ShawnGBR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:51:05 AM PDT

•  Another reason not to seat their delegates

  by N Watt on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:52:01 AM PDT

  •  ....

    Yes because if people don't think like you do, they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

    /sarcasm

    by Step Beyond on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:13:22 AM PDT

•  I am

  embarrassed for my home state, and glad my child is going to a CT school right now (I am on assignment in CT)

  by fladem on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:53:47 AM PDT

•  from a fellow transplanted New Englander

  this is disturbing but not surprising.  But criticizing our fellow citizens had never gotten us too far in and of itself.  The separation of church and state is supposed to save us from the tyranny of the majority and that is what we need to focus on.  It doesn't matter if 80% of the parents want only Creationism taught, our Constitution forbids it.  And good luck amending that.

  If the right-wingers were really smart, they'd take a different approach.  Ultimately, they are going to have trouble injecting even intelligent design into "science" classes.  But I do think that in some states, they might be able to create an alternative class to science that stays far enough away from religion that it passes muster with conservative-appointed courts.  If they did that, we could be in real trouble in some states.

  If we really want to publicly push back, probably the best bet is to compare including this stuff in science class to madrassa.  From a sound-bite standpoint, that works extremely well.

  by eparrot on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:54:20 AM PDT

•  Metric System

  I lived in FL once.

  During the metric push by my school board, there was a large belief that 'Russia uses the metric system.  Ergo, this is the school board's attempt to push communism on our kids'.

  I kid not.

  by sny on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:54:54 AM PDT

  •  ok, that's just awesome!

    (...I can say from a distance. I guess wouldn't be so completely hilarious up close to the situation.)

    by reid fan on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:58:19 AM PDT

  •  Wouldn't touch the commie bastards w/10 meter log

    by eparrot on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:02:54 AM PDT

    •  If that pole is ten foot long...

      Isn't that roughly a three meter pole?

      (A meter equals three feet three,
      It's longer than a yard, you see...)

      by ShawnGBR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:36:28 AM PDT

      •  inflation, it even affects measurements :)

        by eparrot on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 03:58:32 PM PDT

•  forget it, jake, its florida.

  by 2nd balcony on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:07:14 AM PDT

•  What about Alachua County

  As an ex Washington state resident (Spokane, Seattle) currently living in Gainesville, I can relate.  Can we include Alachua County in the new state of "South Florida".  We are a bastion of blue in a sea of red.  I don't want to have to go to the trouble of living in the congested, sprawl that is South Florida but I like their politics.  

  As far as I can tell, all the resolutions passed by these schoolboards in "Southern Georgia" have no teeth.  They have to teach what the state schoolboard passes, but these resolutions are just a statement that they don't support using the E word in these resolutions.  But still, having a local schoolboard that is antagonistic towards teaching evolution, will likely not lead to a healthy discussion of the topic.  

  by cassdog on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:08:07 AM PDT

•  GIGO

  That was a term popular in the mid-1970s among the computer-literate (which were a rare breed then, and I was not one of them, but I knew a couple).

  GIGO is short for

  "Garbage In, Garbage Out."

  In other words, and in this political/religious context, brainwash enough people into believing something true is actually false, then poll them about it.

  Surprise: the brainwashed will respond to the poll according to their brainwashing.

  by rdbaker43 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:13:59 AM PDT

  •  This works for bland radio stations too!

    Sounds funny, but I have a layman's lesson in pop psychology that applies here.

    When I was working just north of London, there was a local commercial (non-BBC) radio station  occasionally listened to called Chiltern FM. They were "the Hot FM" and they played "a better mix o' music". And yes, their shows had the same names as American ones (Breakfast with so-and-so and so-and-so, Drive Time, Cuddle On The Couch etc.)

    They had jingles where people on the street were asked why they liked the station, and they said because "it's the hot eff-em" or because "it's a better mix o' music".

    Even on their live feeds during concerts at Milton Keynes or Knebworth ...blah blah Hot FM, blah better mix o' music.

    I used to dream of the day they would ask me why I listened. "Because I get good reception for it at work, and some of the songs you play are good, but it's just background noise mostly". Nah, doesn't go well on a jingle.

    When people get brainwashed, it's not as though most of them got their brain grubby to begin with.

    by ShawnGBR on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:44:57 AM PDT

•  Here's a map that I created for Panda's Thumb

  

  by House on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:30:49 AM PDT

  •  I understand my impression better now.

    Thank heaven, I live, and more to the point, my Granddaughters attend school in Brevard...it's bright green!!!!!
    That is a relief and a half!  

    by leeleeFL on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 09:24:03 AM PDT

•  Let's count their delegates!

  by Hesiod on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:32:43 AM PDT

•  explain to them that evolution

  mearly sheds light on the depth, breadth and majesty of the adaptation of god's creation, showing that he is indeed more grand in it due to its unending application of his will upon the earth as it takes place

  by TAPayne on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 02:12:04 PM PDT